INFORMAL CHAT AT LA CAZADORA (“THE HUNTRESS”)
9/27/05 (Transcription)
Negro: …and since we are at the Huntress (laughter) we have to move with great caution… great caution… Just ask…
N:…there’s a part where you talk about the void, isn’t there?
Negro: Ahhh, so we begin!
N: and you say something like, I don’t remember the words, like now is the time that the internal is manifesting itself in the world - isn‘t that so?
Negro: Well, it’s about that.
N: That is to say... I’m asking: that which… which is manifesting, which is appearing, well, I imagine that it has to do with the Sacred. But the question is: does it have to do with that potency, that impulse? That that is manifesting in the world?
Negro: It has to do with that. Well, a little… (laughter) It has to do with that, I believe...
N: Ah, OK. And does that have something to do with conversions?
Negro: With conversions… with conversions… I wouldn’t know what to say…
N: Because on the other hand you talk about process…
Negro: True… In other words it may be that this profound thing manifests in the people without them going through conversions.
N: And then I have several separate issues and I can’t connect them, and in some way it seems to me that they are… let’s say that they could be connected and I can’t do it. There’s the other issue of the search, which for me is related to what I asked you about what is manifesting… well, God, for me, that force, that potency, that impulse...
Negro: Yes.
N: OK… does it have to do with the search, I mean, does there have to be a search for…?
Negro: I don’t know if it has to do or doesn’t have to do with that but what is true is, that if there is a search without forcing anything, if there is that search, if it exists and is manifesting... it manifests first in one's behavior and then begins to touch others, but with the same disorder. What can I tell you? An idea doesn’t become manifest and then appear clearly as the same idea in another and from there appear in another and… What is manifesting is a disorder that begins to impact first one, then another. When I say disorder, I’m saying that this doesn’t move in the realm of ideas. A kind of contagion is produced, not in the pejorative sense, but when people are on this profound search get contaminated. It’s very strange, it’s very different this way of communicating among people when that is present, that basic search. Because outside of that you can’t talk with much clarity; if people never know what they're talking about. Today we were talking about that with Alejo, people were coming to him with a question which left him exasperated saying to himself, "but what are they asking me?" Questions can be such a mess. On the other hand with certain ones... certain questions, deep questions, about the search... what reaches the other is more than just the question… One never knows what one is talking about, nor what the other is talking about.
There are some very difficult things here. Very difficult, all this is very difficult. So when you are seeking something take a moment to clarify what you are looking for. Not to clarify it by definition, even though it is registered with clarity, more and more clarity, in fact. Not with words that say what this is, words screw things up in these matters. These things aren't clarified through words, and in general we are accustomed to clarifying things with words - "Ah, now we are going to clarify things” – (laughter) and the other has to respond - “No, I didn’t want to say that, you've misinterpreted what I’m saying …” All these are a mess of words but in these things it is not a matter of words. So when someone is searching for those meanings and all that, that's not the way, words are not the way... it seems to me. Well, we're not clarifying anything with what we are saying either, nothing at all is ever clarified but it’s certain that you don't clarify things with words, that’s for sure... About the other you never know. That's why we emphasize communication and furthermore we emphasize experience. Because I don’t know what you are thinking, nor do I know what this person or that one is thinking, but if we carry out an experience we have a common base, and afterwards the conclusions that one person draws and those that another draws are very strange and we don’t understand each other, we never understand each other. But in the moment of a common experience, that kind of wave, that basis of experience in common, there, yes, that does connect people; that connects people, that common experience. And the explanations about that experience… forget it… that’s extremely difficult, extremely difficult. It’s the common experience that connects people. You will say, well, but each person can have a different experience, certainly… imagine what the words would be like. With words, it’s Hollywood!
There’s no way, there’s no way. So, since there’s no way, if you experience that search, that thing with intensity and so forth; and… the most that one can do is to try to clarify that register... not much more... to clarify the register of that search.
Have you seen how small the Message is? Just one phrase: Who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I going? Who am I? Whoever answers that is a champion, a champion of champions! What do you mean, who am I?! It’s already a mess, and we've just begun… There are some who come to you and say, “Well, but who am I?” How should I know who you are?! (laughter) If I don’t know who I am, am I going to be able to tell you who you are? …disorder… chaos! It’s impossible to solve. Who am I, they ask you…
I: All that was talked about at Aranjuez, wasn't it?
N: Yes, also.
Negro: And you’ll see we’ll keep talking about it… At Bomarzo which is even more monstrous. What was said, Isa, can you tell me?
I: They were asking you that: about who am I and where am I going… and then you began with the development of the “I” and the illusion of the “I” and… not mortifying people…
Negro: Better not to stir that up because if you do it doesn’t help anyone. It complicates everything even more… No, there’s no solution for that. (laughter) There’s no solution, so if someone wants to experience the thing and to do so more and more clearly and strongly, more powerfully, that has its charm. As for the rest…nothing. And it doesn't work with words. What is said there in the Message is very little. It is pathetically limited…
I: Well, that’s a point of view.
Negro: In an age of so many different things: calipers, pliers, screwdrivers, whatchamallits, things for everything!... Pathetically limited.
B: …About shared experience…
Negro: Yes, what about shared experience?
B: It seems very important to me that what we are discovering in The Message regarding shared experiences, because before... this thing of experience. It was said that some had one experience and others had another... some connected one way... but sometimes, it seems as if the people speak, when one speaks through the people, for example, one thing speaks through the people, as if the people who are there carrying out the experience are able to get attuned, and one is amazed because it seems like just one entity is speaking.
Negro: Yes.
B: And the other day…
Negro: Yes.
B: and it’s the same thing that they begin recognizing, like an echo, that many begin to recognize, that aren’t words, they give it more and more volume... It's something else.
Negro: And you’re still talking about shared experience? In shared experience the people talk, they say things, but you are saying that shared experience is the same and that with words they give it volume.
B: People who haven’t read the book and who express it anyway… It feels like something alive that is beginning to manifest itself. Beyond…
Negro: That’s getting closer, Blanquita, that’s getting closer… because the rest… when the theories start, goodbye, a mess of things, but that experience… is common, basic, one person can experience it, then another, and another... Then come the explanations and everything gets screwed up. But if something can be experienced in common– that’s the charm of the experiences… Experiences together. We all have our experiences, of life, of things and all the rest, but rarely do we have experiences together. Unless you put a sign there, let's say a sign painted blue, then we all look at the sign painted blue. And it might be that we have an experience in common seeing the sign painted blue… More or less, the structure of the eye is similar. So we have an experience in common looking at the same blue sign. That is a very primary thing, a way to begin. But if we put a rabbit on this blue sign, the whole thing gets messed up, because this eye and the other person’s eye and my own eye and the other guy’s eye over there all looked at it in different ways. Then everyone starts talking among themselves… and where was the rabbit? In the upper right. No it was in the lower left. Oh, really? How big was it? How many rabbits do you think would fit on the sign? Fifteen. No, eight. (laughter) It’s not possible… to come to agreement, it’s never possible. So a very primary, basic experience: a sign, a color, we all look at it, as long as no one is color blind… In general, we look, we have a common experience and we have that common experience of something very elemental that doesn’t serve much purpose, but we are in agreement that there’s a blue sign… (laughter) We come to the conclusion that this common experience it totally useless (laughter). So if we want to advance a little and we put the rabbit there, well... It's the dictatorship of relativism... (laughter) Perceptual relativism …
The basic experience of great importance, of great force, is the experience of search, or whatever you want to call it, it’s what counts. But in the Message not many explanations are given about that… Explanations are given… bah, explanations, hints, well… We should know who am I… we are already screwed. Where do I come from? I haven’t the slightest idea. Where am I going? …even less. It’s something… But without a doubt these are the important things. But you see it is disorder that's transmitted. And in no way is it a transmission of ideas, in no way. And when an idea is transmitted, you see that there is the blue sign. Are we all in agreement that that is a blue sign? Yes? Well, it isn't worth shit (laughter). What do you gain with that? Two and two are four, how great! Very useful, very useful for many other things, but not for what we are talking about. For what we are talking about, two and two is four, forget it, it’s useless. What is this staring at me with a weird look as if I were a bookkeeper. (laughter) what is that! (…?) What is that…
You are asking me very difficult questions. We can strengthen that register, make it stronger, the most we can do is make that register more powerful, and we can have access to common experiences… How do we achieve this access to common experiences? With a trick. The trick is the trick of the ceremonies. Each ceremony puts us at a level of… questioning, at the level of a register. Well, now we are going to do a ceremony of wellbeing. No one knows exactly what wellbeing is but for sure it's not illbeing (laughter). So we all get into the frequency of wellbeing, and there we are doing things and someone laughs and the rabbit appears in the experience and there we are again... we are in… So there we connect in things that, yes, are more interesting than looking at a blue sign. They are more interesting, but of course, afterwards we interchange and then forget it, everything gets totally screwed up, the interpretations appear once again, but the experience, in the trick of the ceremony, in the trick of the ceremony we connect pretty well. We don’t connect totally, but we connect pretty well. Yeeesssss! In the trick of the ceremony. Listen, it can be 2, 20, 200 or 20,000 people speaking different languages, with different cultural backgrounds who connect in that moment in a very similar mental state. And that has its force. That has its force. It can connect people well that ceremony; it’s different from the connection given in other ceremonies. Those connect people too, but with other ways of functioning, on other levels.
And in reality, behind every experience of this kind is that question. That fundamental question is what is being clarified—though not with words. It's the register that's clarified. When people participate in these experiences they connect at a different level, they are all working with the fundamental questions; they are all into that, even though they don’t formulate these questions with words.
Well, what we are saying here, this that’s so vaporous and undefined, is proper to the Message. That’s the way it works, it doesn’t work with nice square ideological schemas… because by its very nature, because we emphasize registers not ideas, and the registers, as you can imagine, are very undefined, very difficult to… Of course, the registers, with all the coenesthesia they have, with all the visceral impulses… that link them together and… very little of ideas, very little of ideas; The Message is not a source of ideology.
So it seems to me it’s a very interesting thing, but very undefined, very undefined. I would say to whoever wants ideological clarity… stay away from the Message! (laughter) Far way, a great distance, because it’s not the way, because it’s eludes ideological clarity, because what’s in the Message isn’t about that. The Message isn’t going to give us ideological clarity. You’ll say, but it can give you internal force, it can give you clarity in your ideas… in your ideas yes, but not in an ideology, not in an assembly of ideas… force in your question, that’s the direction the Message will go. And of ideological clarity—nothing. You don’t ask an elm tree to give pears. That’s not how its going to happen. So when you formulate ideological questions for a kind of scheme that isn’t ideological, it’s a total mess (laughter). It’s a dialog among half-wits,
I: At Bomarzo… can you expand on that… Can I ask?
Negro: You can ask… (laughter).
I: Could you expand on what you said at Bomarzo, that the Message was a response to something that was in the people?
Negro: Well, you see, but in asking that question you have a sensation of all that, you have a little taste, you have a… Isn't that so? And that is what is most valid. You are tuning in, you are pointing toward an area in your registers. “Could you expand on that thing about…?” You want me to respond to things that belong in that area. (laughter) And, logically, if not, you wouldn’t ask me. Well, that it occurs to you to say that, that is gaseous…
I: I had some registers that the Message is being built...
Negro: Yes.
I: … we are building something gaseous. What happened to me when I read Bomarzo was that I realized that I too am trying to give a response to the people's outcry.
Negro: Yes.
I: It’s not only Silo, it’s not only the Master, it’s us… we are building it ourselves, well, nothing like that had ever happened to me before, I had never realized anything like that, it’s another emotion… What I feel isn’t enough, nor is what I am able to think about what I feel.
Negro: And much less will what I say suffice, Isa. Really, think about it very well… inside. And much less will my words be enough. You say "we are building," based on an experience and all that, and I believe it is so. If one tries to intensify that experience, I still believe you, but you are going to achieve special registers… that’s what I can tell you…
I: But I, without being there, I wasn’t hearing it, I was just reading it on a piece of paper, and it moved me, what you said moved me…
Negro: But perhaps all of that is not because of the words, Isa. It is not because of the words that were said but because of the climate that is transmitted, because of the frequency you are in. It is not on account of the words… You will say “alright, but somehow they are words that…” Yes, of course, they are words. They are words, but it is the climate that is transmitted. It is the reinforcement of the experience that we have been talking about for some while and that Blanquita so wisely put up for discussion…
Those experiences she (Norma) looks for, that to her seem connected to states of conversion… that will not have representations … And perhaps Isa, the point is to present you with this void that allows you to construct your experience. Maybe… we are presenting a void, instead of giving an explanation about how things are and all that… Maybe we are leaving all that for you to construct.
I mean to say, possibilities are possibilities …
So it moves you, alright, it moves you. But have you examined well what it is that moves you? Haven’t you noticed that what moves you is a lack of response… instead of a response? Eh, it is very complicated…! No it is not so complicated…
I: ... what moves me… ...something that opens...
Negro: What opens?
I: I don’t know.... something greater, something big.
Negro: But what is big? Is it what is outside or is it what you feel that is big?
I: It’s outside and I feel it and I feel that it’s also in us, and also that it’s outside, that it’s in the world.
Negro: It is in the world—your register is that it is in the world, but in reality what you can talk about is what you feel, and what you feel is something that opens more, it strengthens and grows, and it could be that as you reinforce it and you reinforce your experience, it grows. I don’t know if here it is a question of something one says. Rather it’s a matter of the ambit formed by those people… to manifest that experience, the ambit formed by those people, and if I can help that ambit to be formed we are alright. And it will not be because of the things one says but because of the ambit one sets up from where those launches are made. And all this can turn out to be very useful; it can turn out to be very useful… not because of the answers that are given but rather how the ambits are arranged so that the people can build… You say: “it’s gibberish, a merry-go-round”. And well, it is the nature of these things… And how do we move forwards? Well… we move forwards, more or less. There are experiences. They are personal and personal experience is much questioned, even by oneself. We doubt even our own experience, we look in the mirror and doubt and say “today, did I experience it or didn’t I?” So, imagine when there are 20 people, each one doubting their own experience, imagine when multiplied by 20 it is a tremendous thing; however, in those shared experiences that we call Ceremonies, those 20 are put in one same experience and they speak of a register, they are put in another experience or in another Ceremony and they speak of another register, but while the explanations are variable, there is great commonality in what they say… …A great commonality in what they say about those experiences. Afterwards they begin with how the energy went out through the ears that it went who-knows-where, and there everything gets messed up; but there is a great commonality in what people say about those experiences. And so it is as if ambits were setup where those experiences can be strengthened. And it has its charm; a bit like conjuring, this of putting ambits where the experiences of people are strengthened… new ambits with new experiences for people.
But we are not speaking of just any experience. We are speaking of the experiences we could call transcendental, that is to say they are not everyday experiences although they affect our everyday life; but it is these experiences… that are not found in everyday activity, they are found in another region, as though in another mental space… In another mental space, in another mental time, experiences that have a flavor of something very old, experiences that have a flavor of things from your childhood, experiences and a strange little time, a strange space… they are not the everyday experiences, all this moves within experiences that are not the everyday ones… and it is all like that, they are not-everyday experiences! They are very useless for everyday, but it is very true, those not-everyday experiences can be strengthened. They tran-scend everyday, they transcend it in its time; they transcend it in its space. That’s what these experiences that connect people in one same transcending base that transcends the everyday are about. Properly seen this can be quite wonderful. To see this, to see it from another perspective: creating mental ambits where the transcendent experience is strengthened, where people participate in the same ceremonial experience. Creating those ambits is something very special.
I: That is the register I had reading Bomarzo and Aranjuez. When we had the meeting of messengers here in June at La Cazadora, I didn’t have that register, well, but that doesn’t matter now—without having been at Bomarzo or Aranjuez, just by reading. There was an ambit there that was created starting from what you were saying… …the whole situation that was created and an atmosphere and all that… a mental ambit. Well, there was no ceremony, afterwards there was a ceremony, but it didn’t depend on the ceremony.
Negro: It didn’t depend on the ceremony…
I: In that case, did it depend on the questions and the answers; on the disposition among all our people there?
Negro: You said it well—on the disposition of the people—because the people put themselves in a special frequency, and so we were not doing a Ceremony, but there was a common experiential base, the people put themselves in the same wavelength, that is true. So it did not matter much what we said, it was the people that put themselves in a particular wavelength. You will say “Well, but you must have done something”, and yes, I helped create that ambit and now we all come to an agreement, we put ourselves in a particular wavelength. Do you see what I say? It is as if we were a pretext for people to put themselves in that wavelength. That has…
I: It is like creating an empty ambit.
Negro: Yes, of course.
I: …To be able to make that void…?
Negro: Yes, I don’t know if its one or another that makes the void, but a void is made there, it is as if by magic. Yes, but there is a void. You put yourself in that frequency, you sail along that frequency for a little while, then not even knowing all this that we are talking about; I sail on that frequency for a little while and that has a little of the flavor of another time and another space, a little while and that’s it. And there is something that comes out of there and there comes a moment when people “zap!” they connect there. I connect there. We can generate those ambits, yes, we can have those ambits, and we can do it with something we know about: our Ceremonies. We can create certain conditions in which people could put themselves, and the people could put themselves in those conditions on special occasions and a lot of people could put themselves in that same frequency. Even now it can be seen in the world; the conditions are being created for people to connect… And how are those conditions being created? You will say: “But how rude!” And well, they are being created because throughout the world the mass media manipulate the image in the same way; because certain events reach everyone in a similar way. For whatever reasons you want but an experiential ambit is being created, an experiential ambit from which more fundamental questions can be asked, more transcendental, more out of the ordinary. But watch out, because to arrive to that means to reach it through the everyday. It is reached because the news is manipulated, because things happen that are managed everywhere in a similar way, because even everything that is false and full of lies is anyway making an impact in people’s heads. That is globalization, a disgusting globalization, there is a common everyday impact but the response will not be everyday, it will go further, the everyday is working in all this and it will leap to something else!
I: Is a propitious field being created…?
Negro: Well, a void of meaning is being created. The world, the situations, work is being done, that ambit is affecting people, that ambit is acting.
Us… all of us… We are in very nice moments; very… the moment is moving everything… only…it is very…
But don’t believe that this happens by clarifying words; and if there are words, and if we formulate words, it will be for nothing more than to create those ambits, for people to “zap!”, do their things with their head, only then do the phenomena of conversion come… when the people “zap”.
I: So we must do that, place signals, so that when people look they see something and…
Negro: We don’t have to do things… you go building and something goes happening… It is not a message we have to transmit... Working as with the void, as with the void in the halls. The halls are inspiring, not because we enter the hall and encounter images, things hanging, advertisements, posters… no, you enter those halls and the first problem? you don’t find anything. This is alright; it is an incitement, an incitement to… …to understand those registers…
It is a bit morphological, as you like, but it is not action of the form because of what there is but for what there isn’t. It has its charm… It is inspiring, inspiring because something is not there, there is nothing, there is nothing, yes, but the head is working. There is nothing in way of objects, in that space; it is quite empty, that is true, there is emptiness, there are limits, there are walls, there is height, there is a floor; in that sort of void ambit, there is a great activity and you register a buzzing in your head. Your head is buzzing! “Hey, what is this? What am I doing here?!” But it is not the images that are suggesting it, nor the smells nor the flavors, nor the… not a damn thing! None of that is suggesting these things to you. Are they illusions? These things of yours that at times are more inspired, at times less inspired, and in those ambits a common experience among several… Ah! It is quite something…
I: An isolation chamber but one where you are not alone. You are with others…
Negro: It is very coincidental, very coincidental. The whole thing is quite spectacular. It is very interesting, psychologically speaking, it is very interesting a somewhat transcendental psychology, out of the ordinary. Anyway these are things that happen in people’s head, they don’t happen in the stratosphere. How is it that these things happen in people’s head? When you are reading this stuff from Aranjuez and those things prove inspiring for you, it is because through those words you enter into certain ambits. Of course, you don’t see those ambits; they are sort of cross-sections that we are making in the explanation, like slices of ham or cheese, slices. One puts oneself in a little internal level or another, right? It is possible to get into those hams, I tell you that.
I: … everything that was beyond what you were saying… I was overwhelmed with tears… and also when you say that about the children—that now they will never die…
Negro: I don’t know about that’s about, Isa, tell me.
I: They say—it’s circulating a lot—that about “whoever dies before dying will never die”, and then you explained it had to do with a Ceremony that was done at other times. That now people are big and no longer die and don’t need to worry about doing those things, but those Ceremonies those children did, those children now will never die.
Negro: That is good, ehhh, man! You would have to be insensitive for that not to do something to you. So that’s alright, Isa. And?
I: … well, this that we are saying, what other explanations, what other contexts... (...?) Like nostalgia, an aspiration, those of us who were not at Bomarzo and Aranjuez, of being able to have access to that space and that time which we all register was generated there.
Negro: Well, and I come out with all this stuff and leave everything in a much worse state than it was before (laughter)! And it’s left the wrong way around – now that the explanations come, everything gets screwed up because… it matters little what you say; however, the things that are said, the way of organizing the phrases and all that can set a more or less interesting ambit for you to do your thing, that is what I am saying… For you to develop your experience in these matters… Not your experience on how to fix electric outlets. For you to develop your experience in these matters, and they aren’t so many. They are the most important things in life. They are not everyday things, they are not everyday. They have the flavor of myths, they are outside a fixed time and space; they have that flavor and have their charm. How aren’t myths going to have their charm?! You have to be thick not to feel something with a myth, right? One thing, but those things are not everyday things. However, they move you they put you somewhere else, in another space. They are a system of images where things are possible, that means they open up, where things in the myths are totally possible, you can’t have such things in daily life. How can this be possible! You go through walls, up and down, you go in there and come out here—but what’s this—you transform! All things are possible in that world.
P: - And in that world...?
Negro: I think so. And it is very powerful, because when the other world of the people gets very unbalanced, and… we start… things start flying. “Did you see it or did you dream it?” Well, I dreamed it, and I saw it… (Laughter) And the party has started! The party has started! The archetypal images of the Jungian collective unconscious. The party has started. What was so reasonable didn’t take us the right way and has become unstable. So reasonable, so reasonable that they threw things at your head, or they beat you to a pulp, but what is all this about 'Reason'? But… but of course…
Let it not be that certain limits of tolerance of perception are reached, certain limits of tolerance in the functioning of personal projects, a certain limit of tolerance in what I am going to make of my life and the way things are going—no, I can’t do this, so then the magic appears… So many rules, so much crap and then off I go as a… centaur. Those know-it-alls think they’re on top of things but it’s all getting to be too much for the general nervous system. It would be better if they were be aware of these phenomena … things continue alright, nice and favorable, because otherwise here there is going to be a … important at the collective level. It will be a problem; a problem for everyone. It is a way we have of frightening people (laughter). It’s very rewarding. You remember the Christians and the rest of them creating guilt and all that; if you don’t do things right you will see what’s coming!!!!... We are mounted on the same mechanisms, we know them well…(laughter) …
Things are getting heavy and these know-it-alls act like it’s nothing. Well watch out, because here there’s going to be a collective collapse. Ah, yes. There is an important degree of chaos in the communication among people. It is not possible to continue constructing the towers like that, “ad infinitum”. “Pass me the cement!” and the other guy passes him a brick. “Pass me a brick!” and the other guy throws him a spoonful of something. “I can’t hear you!” (…) (Laughter) It is all fucked up. It is all fucked up.
I: … of communication, somehow, protection by the committee for the defense of the weak nervous system.
Negro: No doubt! There is no doubt at all! Well...good...good...entertaining...good... ... that internal experience of ours, to strengthen, to inspire us, to see other possibilities, to think, to communicate with the people who are more or less in the same thing. In reality everyone is in the same thing, only that they don’t all have opportunities for connecting to that frequency… Those are the one hundred and forty thousand or one hundred and forty four thousand and something… that are saved. All the rest are screwed! So say the Jehovah witnesses (laughter) there is a number of people… those are the saved… the others, are screwed! Come on, come on! Of course, one hundred and forty four thousand two hundred… those are saved… Here… …and they are all saved or nobody is saved!!
Indeed. Indeed. It is not working out. The system is not functioning. It is not working out. You will see the traffic lights working well, red light, yellow light, green light, now you can cross. Not even the aspirations of people are working out, or the representation of the world, or the meaning of their lives! Forget it! Now, more than ever before, they have to strengthen their internal experience and that we will not do with words. We will do it simply with some insinuations, insinuations, insinuations. Then, the people reinforcing… logically, the people are not made of wood, they ask their questions, the answers don’t come, they strengthen their experience, they again ask their questions, and it is a real mess, questions and more questions, and something will impact in that hard-head one. By the strength of the experience. So then, Isa…
I: That’s ok, right?
Negro: What are you trying to tell me? Don’t rely on the explanations Isa; they’re very circumstantial; they are very dependant on the circumstances, the explanations are not the point. It’s a matter of the frequency in which one… Yes, one can sail around here for a while. And I would recommend… more than any type of explanation, what is said and done in the Message. Well, that’s it. This is what I recommend – and what would you recommend? … The Message. See, my friend, here you have experiences, ceremonies, and the book is useful to place yourself in that environment. And those phrases, those phrases are also a bit special, but we are there, sailing around there.
A: Negro, I have been asking myself for quite a while “who I am”, almost on a daily basis.
Negro: And you have grown a lot asking these questions! (laughter)
A.: What I’ve noticed is that at first I was looking more for an internally verbalized answer.
Negro: Who am I?
A: About who I am. More recently …
Negro: I don’t care anymore! (laughter).
A: Yes, it’s true, I don’t really care about that type of answer any more, but I’ve started to find spaces of silence, which now I’m relating to the mental spaces that you’ve been mentioning, and which put you in a frequency with the experience shared with others, with the internal experience. And I’m surprised by how these spaces become deeper. I don’t know if this is the direction.
Negro: Are you asking me?
A: I’m asking you.
Negro: But, I don’t really know what you are asking me!
A: That change, what would it be about? Is it a change in level or in the answer? Does it mean that - in front of these questions one asks – that it is necessary to go deeper into that silence, or to try to go further?
Negro: I …. I don’t know what to tell you, Ariel, I don’t know what to tell you, because one asks oneself who am I, and where am I going, and all those things, and you start getting answers, or half answers or pseudo-answers. One is always saying things. Today in one way, tomorrow in a different way, but it seems that these questions, about who am I, and where am I going, are not answered in phrases, they are not answered in phrases.
A: OK.
Negro: Who am I? —underlined and written below it : “I am an interesting person.” No, No. Erase that!. Let’s start again. Who am I? Weeeell… erase that! If you can use a chisel, better yet! Who am I…? (laughter) Don’t do that. Don’t ask yourself… yes, ask yourself, but don’t wait for the answer. Who am I? Who am I? Today I am someone, tomorrow I’m somebody else, yesterday I was someone else, Then, I’m not the same one. So, I don’t know who I am, but I’m not the same person. So it seems that I’m asking the question about things that are totally illusory. Who am I? What I? No, no. I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t know who I am, buuuut, I know that I am not what I think I am. That’s, for sure. That’s what I know. Well, whatever you want. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not what I believe I am. That is not a big step forward. So little notion, so very little news about what I believe I am—because that’s not what you are. If I take a bit of memory away, ciao, Ariel disappears. He became something else. If I take certain sensations away everything becomes strange, it is not longer the same thing. It’s true, as some people have said, that the “I” is a composite, it is not a unity. But one has always taken the person as a unity. No, it is not a unity, it’s not even a combination. It is a juxtaposition of sensations, memories, of things that one remembers, of strange perceptions. That is the “I”. “I” is the illusion of the unity which in reality appears as a collection of sensations, images and memories. That is “I” – something which doesn’t have too much of a future.
It so happens that this is what you came in with, but listen! You’ll soon see. Just you wait, and you’ll see how the memory starts to fail, and the “I” starts to fail. Your teeth will fall out, your ear falls off, or an eye and your “I” starts to fail (laughter). The perceptions and all of that—until nothing’s left. That’s a great advantage! It means that we have less to worry about… Nothing is left, one starts turning into a wreck (laughter), decrepit, and comes to the conclusion that they can’t even agree on who they are. Now they can’t even sort out who is this “I” because… It’s great! (laughter). And then at the end, for those who are fond of grand finales, at the end you fall into account that you are …Nothing… a void. You can’t even remember where you left something, what is there to know where they’re coming from, and where they’re going? They don’t even know what they’re looking for! It’s really something! (laughter) And that’s how we pass through this world. Millions doing this same thing, milllliiiooons! One replacing the other… what is this! It’s a joke! (laughter) Millions replacing each other and no one knows jack shit – they don’t even know where they left their things, (…) everywhere. This is not serious. How can it be serious, it’s ridiculous. It’s totally ridiculous (laughter).
So, going back to the “I”, finally, nothing is left, so as it starts to fade away, then, for the first time in one’s looooong history, for the first time, one is liberated, because you just don’t know what to ask any more!!! Do you remember what the question was? Sure, because there you are a living liberated person, which is the same as saying a living wreck. That’s very good. Sure! It’s great! And one arrives at those final conclusions; final conclusions that there is nothing (laughter). It’s a manner of speaking.
P: … registers?
Negro: What about the subject of registers?
P: … “where am I going, and where am I coming from”, could they in some way be the same type of register—something similar?
Negro: Yes, they could belong to the same family. Yes, yes, of course. It is possible that they are similar things. Who am I? Where am I coming from? Where am I going? They’re all revolving around the same thing, but, yes, everything starts to evanesce, existence starts to become translucent. It starts to lose density until one evaporates. Yes.
P: …it becomes absolutely translucent.
Negro: Yes, without a doubt. It’s all quite extraordinary and very funny, but well, people look at it a bit tragically. But well, one has to live! If you’re not even concerned about your own life, we’re screwed! We have to do something! And what do we have to do? There are internal experiences that are very gentle… and there are some internal experiences that have a lot of force, and there are internal experiences that grow in some way, that begin to fill more and more space in one’s life.
How interesting this is. One’s life is a succession of things, among the things; a sack race… one knocks things down…there you start to become more interested in many other things that aren’t so everyday. And one gives importance to strengthening these not-so-everyday experiences, because there’s always enough time for everyday matters. More interesting things - in that direction, in that direction. Where I’m coming from is not that important, it could be from here or there, but that doesn’t concern me too much. What matters is that I’m already on my way (laughter). On the other hand, where I’m going to is a bit more interesting. I fret over that a little more than where I’m coming from, and who I am. That’s the point: where am I going?
P: What awaits me!
Negro: Or, what doesn’t await me.
Imagine that after all this mess, and who knows what all… puff! But, what is this? It’s a joke, a bad joke, a joke in bad taste…. So much crap and then, puff! (gesture). They were good people… Here lies John Tupper, I can cook him up and have him for supper. (laughter). So what can we do?
I’m a bit more worried about this, a little, not a lot, but a little bit more. Where am I going to go? Where am I going to go? If the “I” is this hodgepodge of things that has no consistency in itself, that has no unity, that is a juxtaposition of things; if everything starts to disappear: perception, memory, and I can’t find things, if that happens with the “I”, imagine what’s going to happen with this “where I came from and where I’m going.” It must be a mixture of things, the “where I am going.” …The unitive “I”…such a unity does not exist. Imagine: where do you think that you are going? You think you’re going over there? You? But of course, the big “I”. There goes the “I”. Forget it! There is no such “I”, so you’re not going neither here nor there; you’re not going anywhere. You cannot go anywhere because you don’t have that bag that gives you unity (…) (laughter). You don’t have a bag like you think you do, no, it’s a disintegrated thing that goes nowhere – a bag of memories! (laughter) a bag!
Where am I going? That’s a good one. That’s very interesting. Do you believe that, in the sad situation that you’re in, do you believe that you are capable of going to some place? Forget it! You, my friend, are going nowhere (laughter). Sure, how are you going to go? You, my friend, are going nowhere. So this question is the most troubling. The subject of the “I” is a little theoretical… whether the “I” is one way or another doesn’t matter. Where I’m coming from, well OK, but where am I going? …where am I going? I don’t know. I’m going to sleep, and then again and again and again. How long is this going to last? Every day the same thing! But, but, what’s this? It’s a joke, it’s a mess… (laughter) It’s a very screwed up joke… Exactly, it’s not very funny. So what do you say of this? This marvelous thing that…
I. …to launch the question and the type of answer or landscape is what would define that the answer is coming from the same I, or an answer that comes from the spaces of waiting or from other spaces and other times.
Negro: Isa, what you are saying seems very difficult! Let’s see, try again, but keep it simple.
I: The other day I was trying to ask myself the question, about the silence and waiting for the answer, like in the works that we used to do.
Negro: But some of us don’t know those works…. You are talking to a group of people, we are all civilized here.
I: This thing of asking and waiting for the answer and according to the answer …. By elimination… No?… the recognition of the answer that arrives from a space-time that one could say is different, at least compared to daily perceptions and images that one has of oneself and the register that it has of “where it’s going.” This answer, or this landscape could be a landscape close to a mythical one – the “Day of the Winged Lion” would appear to me.
Negro: Sure, because we were just talking about it… that the little dragons were flying around.
I: Yes, because that eternal time, the Tenetor … well there … toward where I am going.
Negro: Well, it’s a translated landscape, Isa, translated. One translates things in dreams, one translates things all the time … images are translated – translated. This doesn’t mean that those landscapes are reality itself, we translate the impulses; quite frequently we elaborate the landscapes of those translations, right? And? Where do we go from here? …and then you die, translating things. He spent his life translating things! Exactly, these are translated images. All images are translations. Translated.
So it could be, it might be, on occasions that there is no translation to a particular answer… or, that you don’t translate them into images, not into a bearded guy, nor into a god, or who knows what, something that one expects. No, no no. It’s the meaning… and there, zap! An experience… but don’t let yourself be guided by the image that appears; it can be an incredible image, like dragons spewing fire… but, not the image, a meaning, and it’s going to be complicated to communicate this meaning.
P: Negro, and do we have to try to understand these meanings?
Negro: No, no, no. Forget about it!
P: Because I told myself: my understanding is like trying to use a magnifying glass to look at the stars. I think that it dulls my experience.
Negro: There are some meanings that smack right into you. These meanings hit you hard; they convert your life! There you have strange phenomena… “Hey, I used to drink a lot and my wife always told me she was going to leave me if I continued drinking, but suddenly I went to see some guy and something happened that changed me…” These are phenomena of conversion… They suddenly convert a person’s life! This happens because of a special experience. I don’t know what those experiences are like, those special experiences that give life... something that they didn’t have before. But people will tell you about it! There’s no reason not to believe them. They will tell you about it! …but who cares, it converted their lives! And this is something serious… There’s no reason to think that all these guys are just liars… It converts their lives and it organizes their lives, and then I don’t know what they do, but they did receive that impact.
P: And later Negro, how do they continue to be translated?
Negro: Yes!
When in reality, it should be used as raw material to say “this is very interesting,” let’s not insist on that angle because it’s coming from the angle of the meanings and not of the translations. “And God appeared and said…” God neither appears, nor says… don’t drift off… stick to the meanings. But observe how interesting this is. The phenomenon of conversion that you mentioned a while back is a phenomenon that exists, it is psychologically possible – it happens to people, these are phenomena of great commotion… These phenomena exist, it happens to us too: one has small conversion commotions about things that unsettle us – they are interesting registers… and the meanings were like that but not the same. It’s as if it had happened and you start to become delirious, it’s as if … but it isn’t… the phenomena of conversion happens quite frequently, if you’ll look at your own life, you’ll see many instances of little shocks… Ah! But this is another thing… an electroshock, a mess, these are important phenomena … people fall on the floor! Yes, yes (laughter).
I: On April 2003 you spoke about something like that – about the meanings which are in a crystal box, waiting to be woken up human beings.
Negro: Look at that – if that isn’t mythical. These are mythical things. The Pythagoreans, those weird guys, were always insisting, for example, that people were good because goodness existed… In reality, what existed were good people, but for them, no, people were good because they participated in goodness. People were bad because they distanced themselves from goodness. And one looked at this whole thing of goodness, and it was strange, because that’s what it was—it was the world of those things that circulated up there and then descended, and in this way materialized in diverse things. It’s quite funny how they used to see it – the world of pure ideas, said Plato… But it’s nice how they saw those essences, the essential world that was not the material world, but one of meanings…. One tries to see what that thing would be… it was somewhat material and not of pure meanings…. But, it’s nice how they used to see things! That “essence”, an essential world that was not the material world … And why not...? …of all the meanings… but well, how does that help us? Not much, it’s just sayings of this and that by a bunch of guys who said this and that. So what? Where are we going? That’s it – where are we going? How do we resolve this question?
We are tranquil folk, we don’t complicate things. Each of us does what they can, and in their own way, reinforcing our internal experience, communicating with others about the things that we consider to be more internal. And with respect to everything else, we can disagree “ad infinitum”, is it square, rectangular, green, blue. Forget it, we can’t agree about anything, but in that internal experience we can travel along one pathway, one same pathway, it’s an experience that is outside of everyday life. The Message and the rest of it strikes a nerve. That’s good, yes, it speaks of daily life. It speaks of those who are near to us, our relatives, our friends, society – all of that is good, but what moves all of this is internal experience. And the experiences grow over time; if one is engaged in these things, as a minimum one discovers that experience, and it becomes reinforced. This has an interesting little taste, and notice how far that is from explaining with words. In other words,
we’ve had an entire conversation, and we still don’t know what we are talking about.
We are certainly working with a lot of words, a lot of explanations, that’s for sure. We are placing emphasis on the explanation. We are emphasizing a type of experience that cannot be translated into images, a type of experience that is capable of being strengthened and growing internally, a type of experience that seems to charge the batteries in such a way that sudden irruptions can be produced. Now something that was inspiring becomes a conversion in the meanings of life and of the direction one is taking. And when it is a phenomenon of “conversion,” what changes most significantly, with the most consequences and so on, is the direction of the subject’s life, the direction of the life of the subject. You might say, “You are explaining a phenomenon with words….” Yes, yes. The phenomenon of conversion, precisely, is a phenomenon of a change in the direction of life, and this hypothetical conversion in oneself, is not possible if one’s life continues along the same old tracks. We should not believe the contrary! That by simply changing the habits of life that a phenomenon of conversion will be produced. That’s not the way it is. But when a phenomenon of conversion occurs, a phenomenon of change in the direction of life occurs. And that’s a given! “And I used to beat her with a stick… and my wife was going to leave me, and all that…and suddenly! The minister told me something, and my life changed!” The direction of life of the guy changed.
P: And the way of doing things changes.
Negro: Certainly, certainly, but the direction is the theme that concerns us at the moment, the direction is what changes, the way of doing things, of course. All of this is wonderful, interesting. Yes, that does happen, it can be good, it can.
P: Is it possible, Negro, that you have an experience, which is not of a change in the direction of life, but of clarifying oneself, a strengthening of the direction you’re already taking, a reinforcement?
Negro: Yes, it could be. Let’s hope that it’s interesting because, to reinforce something that isn’t interesting…., I mean, because we’re full of those things. You start getting worse, in other words, more strategic – one has strategies in one’s life. How that kid has changed! Yes! To irritate you even more! See, these changes are strategic. They are strategic changes. One also recognizes those changes in oneself, well, but we’re not talking about that, we are talking about important changes in direction, not about rearranging strategic roles…. Isn’t that so? These are changes that you might have felt at a small scale, or maybe the world turned upside down for us, and we registered that as something very important. Well, we’re not talking about that either, the phenomena of conversion. We are not looking for that, we simply take note that they can sometimes occur, these phenomena of changes in the direction of life. These phenomena are even more interesting than those about who am I and where am I coming from…
One is headed in a different direction and keeps on going like a ball without a handle (?)but in another direction… (laughter). One doesn’t look for conversion because it can go off in any direction. And so what? These are things that happen in life. They happen, they happen, they happen, they happen – do not believe that they don’t happen because they do. Each person can believe whatever they want, but these things happen. I’m telling you, yes, these are important things. In the meantime …inspired, one continues to make things grow, and observing the daily-life things that are there; one is there, among things, and all that, but that doesn’t mean you should put all your eggs… not all of them, in one basket... Well, we’re not doing so badly – we could be worse…
Comment: At least we still remember where we left our things….
P: What things?
Negro: That’s it! What things?!
Comment: … the ones I was looking for!
P. Negro and what happens to the “I” in the experiences, for example in the experiences we do together, where we feel that wave, like a different ambit?
Negro: It…. disappears, a bit, in those experiences. You’re not worried about the “I”. In those experiences… you’re in an interesting frequency, very shared, that is, between the people, but those questions aren’t there. Those questions are not included in those experiences, the questions that of the “I.” Those questions are not there, they pretty much disappear. And, in reality this happens because this so-called “I” does not exist, and yet one has the illusion that it does, and in these experiences there’s very little of the “I” very little. No, no, no… It has no relevance. It turns into a sort of “raisin” (laughter). It’s not an “I”… hey! …here it comes, they all say. And you go and feel stared at. Here it comes! (laughter) No, no, a raisin! That’s the “I” in those experiences because there are other things there that are interesting. The “I” is not directing the situation. How do I look? How they admire me! No. If that’s where you’re at…It’s also nothing serious, but if that’s what you’re into, I think you’re missing the point. If that’s what you’re into, if you are worried about those things, you’re not, you are not able to immerse yourself in that experience…
…enter into that good frequency, and… you don’t understand it well… I let go, let go, let go and shhhhhh, I immerse myself and then, there, I do a little work.
P: The “I” has nothing to do there. It has no work to do.
Negro: None! Exactly, it has no work to do. Boy, I look good (laughter). Very little “I”…
P: It’s a great advantage!
Negro: It is, at least for a while. Then, everything goes to hell. It doesn’t all go to hell, something remains because behind all those acts that one does…. …ridiculous, that later disappear and reappear and disappear… You go on accumulating a little something. That’s interesting. A little something accumulates. Does this mean that it accumulates in the memory….? I don’t know where it accumulates, but these repeated experiences in this type of direction… they’re going well…. They’re good, they’re interesting! Do it yourself. “Those who repeat their acts of internal unity”…and you’ll enjoy life a lot more.
So when you get into this experience, where all those contradictions are, all that mess, all that noise in the head, you place yourself there, and that’s it. Then, you come out, move your feathers like the geese, see? They come out of the water, tac, and they don’t get wet, one does something. That’s good. And that‘s very interesting, a very useful practice. Little by little a “layer of grease” starts forming (laughter), a water-resistant layer. Water doesn’t bother you any more, it doesn’t get through. You do your experience, you repeat it, once, and again and again. A little something begins to take shape – a layer of grease… then they put you in there, they take out your pate de foie, and they eat it (laughter)
That’s good… to repeat the acts in which you try to get in tune, if it doesn’t come out too good, and some other time, ehhh!, it comes out interesting, and some other time, it inspires me…. It moves around. It’s not always the same. Sometimes you hit the nail on the head. Bingo! You leap out of your head for a while, take a turn around, and fall…
Very good. One surely needs to recognize that there are different moments in that experience. Or is it always the same? No. It can’t be. If you don’t have a ceiling that you reach, how can it be the same?
So, Who am I? Good. Where am I coming from? Good. Where am I going? Interesting, “where am I going” creates a problem. Little things pop up and make the “where am I going” vary, the how I do things, and in which direction I’m going. That’s good! And I continue doing my little works and something, like a different attitude, begins to take shape. An attitude begins to take shape. The whole thing of the Message tends to do that – for a different attitude to take shape, a different attitude.
Meanwhile, there’s everyday life, there it is, but it doesn’t carry the weight we used to attribute to it before. You don’t know if you’re going mad, or if you’re becoming more stupid each day… yes. You can recognize all those negatives in yourself, but it could also be that you gain a new outlook on what you used to believe, which means you’re neither madder nor stupider. You are leveling things differently, and you begin to experience the change. Could it be my age?! It could be (laughter) it could be…. And so then we’re having that experience. (laughter). Old and falling apart! (laughter) Isn’t that so? But well, it could be that… something interesting… and so this thing of daily things and all that, there it is, but it’s not so worrisome anymore, it’s not something to worry about so much.
P: A day ends, that’s the surest thing there is.
Negro: It’s the surest thing! Nothing will remain, so it’s better that one learns from the time one’s small (laughter). Imagine the force that all this has when you are young. Then you start becoming wise, in other words, what should not be done! But it has its charm. It also has that.
There goes the Message, doing that thing. There it goes working, in that direction; and it’s working very well. They’re very beautiful – those moments of inspiration are the best! You don’t know if something screwed-up has happened to you (laughter) but they are, hey, they have no comparison. The moments of inspiration have no comparison. You get into a frequency, into a thing and paf! Eureka!
Then you come back, and you have a terrible time, but don’t forget and take note. Don’t be a fool. Take note of the moments of inspiration.
I imagine that we all know what we’re talking about. No? Oh, you do? You know about the moments of inspiration? It has to kick in, in some moment! Certainly. But if doesn’t, what do you have to take? Amphetamines? (laughter) Mayonnaise?
If you have to do all of that to get inspired, say goodbye Francisco! You’re screwed! In order to have that inspiration, and, and, and that inspiration is very, ahhhh! Your heavens open up! …You’re screwed. Do those things happen, or not? Well, I don’t know, but they happen. And those things happen when you go on doing these experiences, you exercise things, you put your head in a good place, calmly, and you start forgetting that you’re so great, so important, and the memory is placed better. That’s an interesting direction. And it’s not with words, not with words. The inspiration is when I’m in those meanings, meanings, not in those images. Not in the images….
P: Negro, does that mean that, with the experiences, the comprehension would increase?
Negro: Well…. You could say that comprehension increases starting from experience, but it’s not an “explanatory” type of comprehension. It’s not an “explanatory” comprehension; it is not an argumentative comprehension where one is tied to that logic proper to our grammar, right? Does it increase the comprehension in the things of this world? No, it doesn’t increase the comprehension of “does the number 11 bus stop here?” In a mall? Like hell! No, you don’t even know where you’re standing. On the contrary, the comprehension of these sorts of things decreases. Yes, yes, yes. But, of course – but the comprehension of these things increases. Yes, it’s as if you were more competent for that world. Since you’re totally inept in this one! Then… there’s nothing left but to…. Sure, sure (laughter) than to pass over to the other one. Sure, sure, yes, there is a lot of comprehension about these things.
P: In general, if one asks for explanations in an attempt to understand, but when it’s not a valid intent, let’s say… like trying to understand what these things might be, because we all have explanations…
Negro: Of course, of course, and its fine, we do as best we can…
P: Right, there is a need to ask for explanations...
Negro: We do the best we can, that’s how it is. That’s how it is. But that’s not where it’s coming from. So it’s like the dance of the crab, we go around and around the same thing. Well, but this is the form… in these things… that are like this.
The Message moves very well for this world and things that we’re talking about. This is how gaseous these things are. The Message is homogenous with the things of that world, which are very gaseous; which have little representation and a lot of meaning. So, then, you have explanations about things and all of that, and the explanations are not suitable, and there we are, again going around the same subject. But in the Message there is a level of comprehension, a level of internal experience, a level of comprehension… and accumulation. There is accumulation.
Let’s hope that everything is done more coherently at the same time, let’s hope it has the same direction in oneself… let’s hope that one becomes more unitive, let’s replace that illusory “I” for something permanent that is not the “I”, that has a… of reality, that has no reality here, but has a reality that other world. We will find out! Undoubtedly one becomes much more sensitive to that.
E: (comment about the state of internal poverty). There you said something about delighting in what one doesn’t have. Could you say something about that?
Negro: Where was this said?
P: …to take great delight, take delight…
Negro: These are inspired phrases! They’re good. That phrase “take delight in what one doesn’t have” …and that about the “poverty of the heart”.
E: …that was good… that’s what one feels.
Negro: Is that what one feels?
E: Yes, yes
Negro: That’s good
E: When I read that, then I don’t read anything more because I said… a little more… that one delights in what one doesn’t have. Based a little on what you had said, I came to the conclusion that one could take delight in the void? In the void…?
(The chat from Aranjuez is read out loud)
Question: What is the “poverty of the heart”
Negro: …and where’s this coming from?
(someone starts rereading the notes at an earlier point…)
P: We find many people who are afraid of silence, of listening to themselves. What can you suggest?
Negro: That friend who comes with you to the meeting… …his heart and his body, and let something manifest in him. What is going to manifest in him? Something that is blocked, that’s totally blocked. He’s afraid to... Let him try it out, nothing bad will happen and the best might happen. We don’t need a lot of theory; on the contrary. In reality we need to sweep away the theory, how good it is to have a certain poverty of the heart. We don’t distribute a wealth… It’s more like a certain poverty of the heart.
Let me sit. 10 minutes. We need more things. Consumerism is the word! (laughter)
P: What is poverty of the heart?
Negro: It’s when you take delight in what you don’t have as opposed to taking delight in what you have. Don’t start theorizing about the subject Aurora, don’t theorize, don’t theorize.
P: How can you know what it is that you don’t have?
Negro: Exactly, that’s a very good question. You can’t know, you can’t know. You search, and you search with need. You don’t know what it is that you don’t have, you don’t know what you have, but you know what you need. You search among the things that you need. And what do you need? You need calmness, you need… what? ...a certain idea of happiness? What do you think of happiness? You need—what? Where are you coming from, where are you going with your things? You don’t even know where you’re coming from or where you are going, but you have some questions that you’re asking: where do you come from, where are you going? We’re not going to mortify people, because even though it might be an interesting path, it’s a little bit cruel to make people reflect about the illusion of things.
Negro: That is very important, that thing. It’s tough. I mention it because that of the “I” not existing creates problems for people, problems in the head. So, we have to treat it gently. Don’t make too much of a fuss about this of the “I” and all that. But even though it’s a great truth that it’s a damned illusion, it’s not good for the psychic economy of the average citizen to be asking themselves: who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going? I am no one. I have no “I”. He would collapse! Therefore be careful with this whole mess. We are not out to mortify anyone, nor to create problems. These are simply “brushstrokes” in passing, it doesn’t mean that it’s an important method to follow, to dedicate oneself to sawing off the ”I” because that’s not the point. That’s not the point.
P: If they do the experiences, they saw things off on their own, and it’s ok!
(laughter)
Negro: Don’t mess with … …that it makes things less….
P: It’s difficult...
Negro: Yes, it’s difficult… but if it is not solved with some internal support it creates problems. You cannot push people to question themselves negating the “I” and everything, because it does not help much… the interesting thing is that it can also push things favorably.
But going back to the theme of “poverty of the heart” and… it is beautiful… interesting that… not what you have, not what you have… uuuuh, one has many things… experiences one has in one’s life, the way things have turned out, the things one… One is rather a bit of an idiot…
That is good. One does not delight in the things and experiences one knows but rather in those others that one does not have.
Well, we are left as before! (Laughter) Anyway it’s very pretty all that.
“Poverty of the heart”. One feels… well, some more than others. There are some, particularly paranoid, that feel (Laughter) eeeeh? (Laughter).
On the other hand, when one feels unhappy, one doesn’t give a shit and there are different experiences and that “poverty of the heart”… so much vanity… (exaggerating), does not help, but rather the other thing helps. “Poverty of the heart” is poverty of emotions, poverty of registers, is almost stupidity. Then we are not exalting a wealth of images, a wealth of emotions, a wealth of I don’t know what… Not so much richness!
I: As Lao Tse said: I go about the world like an idiot.
Negro: Yes! I go through life like an idiot. Everyone knows things. Everyone knows where they are… I know nothing. I do not even know where I am! I am an idiot! Master! (Laughter) That is great! The subject’s perception here is very interesting. As if he is not considering or preoccupying himself with “this”. What do you think?! ...he empowers all he has… his experiences, his internal world, his… Ah! He is a man with a great internal World! Ah, yes! But, please! “He is a man with an internal life”… a gentleman! (Laughter). Not so much… One must see how proud one is of one’s marvelous internal World. That is also the case. You wouldn’t believe yourself! Yes, yes! “The other one has money, but I don’t give a shit, compared to my internal world… but poor guy!!
And one continues like that: “You should see how they see me!” “You should see my internal world!” “You have to see how rich, how profound!” “You have to see what a sensibility” “You have to see how much I feel!”… Well, that… it’s not like that. That is not the way…You are an idiot.
That is what “poverty of the heart” refers to. Not so many stories as with “richness of the heart”
I: It’s to let go all the time.
Negro: Well… it is not very well thought out… what can I say… rather feel that… that way is worth while feeling… that way.
And richness is not worth much. And one does not advance much that way, but rather the other way… …if not… not so much wealth, not so many stories but rather quietly. One does what one can… a poor one and then we will see. Of course. No, no, no… one is a peacock and if one has nothing to showoff one lays claim on to something no matter what… on an inexistent world, a psychological world, and one says to oneself Eh! Here goes little Peter… (tapping his chest) (Laughter). One is an imbecile, but… Look, it is pitiful. Pitiful, I tell you that from experience. It is pitiful (Laughter). Pitiful! That is not the way it should be. That is not the way. Of course… …as a revolting internal inflation.
I: “arrogance of the heart”
Negro: Yes, of course. That’s what it is. It’s not a good thing, but the theme is interesting. I find it very interesting. It is an attitude… Well, nothing happens. We are OK and everyone’s happy. Certainly… …happy! (Laughter) That is the way it is. The Message is good. The Message does not go by the way of explanations. It is diffusion… It is about experiences, group experiences, experiences that we do in different moments, in different stages in one’s life. It is all right. And one goes strengthening the experience one is forging. And take advantage of those moments of inspiration that sometimes occur, take note of them. Take advantage of this condition you have… It is calmer, quieter. That’s the direction. It is not so psychedelic. Less, less, less…. (long silence). It’s all right.
P: ...that is something more in each one…
Negro: Yes, that's what is thought. That's what it's about, that's what it's about. It’s something more… than a party! Vote HP! (Laughter). It’s something else… It’s all right…(long silence)…Always remember, returning to it one more time: explanations are an ambit, they do not have greater… Do not seek after the many explanations that someone might give, because that is not the point. He places an ambit… and people tune in to that ambit… those explanations… little. Little, little because in the end it’s a mess of words. Of explanations, little, but you setup ambits. Then, if one says something happens when one reads the explanations... It’s not about explanations. It is the ambit in which people are placed.
Then some are more apt than others to setup those ambits. Yes, possibly. Well then, but the theme is the ambits! Why? Because of the images used, because of the ambiance created, because of the atmosphere communicated to people, because of whatever. Because of all those things, people place themselves in an ambit. And there the things vibrate well. But do not seek in the other direction. You will get stuck… There are ceremonies also… An ambit, a thing. Fantastic! It goes to another level of experience. Great! And nothing bad can happen. Nothing bad can happen. It is all right.
I: On the contrary, each time it’s better.
Negro: And surely that is how it is in general… it is also good. And when another explanation is given, and it will be given at that time we will see… when another explanation is given, it will always be interesting to remember that the point will not be there, in the explanations, in the words. If another level of explanations is given, it will be again to setup an ambit… Recognize that experience that appears in oneself. If there is a method of activity in this matter, that is it. A method of activity: to place a new ambit. To take one little step further, one little step further. Then a new explanation comes. Eeeehhh! This explanation is very interesting! No, this explanation is not what is interesting. What happens with explanations is that one more ambit is established… …so, new explanations will come, but do not seek through words, that way you will not miss it… Just a moment!
P: …is the inspiration to tune in.
Negro: Yes, of course! As far as words and complications and all that… there is no inconvenience in uttering them… When we asked today at La Reja about what will happen with things… with the conferences and all that… it is right to go back to the theme, because there are a couple of things pending… And questions not yet dealt with… (laughter).
I: Paloma was mistaken…
Negro: Precisely!
I: it seems you answered her, because…
Negro: No, but I am going to answer now, I am going to answer now… (laughter) What I want to tell you is that yes, with all those explanatory complications we will give conferences… I do not know how it will be done so that the conferences are small, with a few people, because we need to justify that later they are published because they were given somewhere. Do you understand what I’m saying? … What is important is that they are given somewhere. That will be useful. A conference given in La Reja on such a day in January, 2006 and that is enough…. I am answering your question about conferences and all that. It will be on Psychology 4 or Transcendental Psychology. Then… what has that to do with The Message? And of course it’s a little bit complicated, but that’s all right… to add confusion (laughter). Of course! So that it can go… Well… that is not.
A: January 2006?
Negro: It is a way of speaking (laughter) Psychology 4, Psychology 4…Transcendental Psychology. Because here there appears all that mess of times and spaces and the “I” that goes up or does not go up. That is not there, that is naked, that translates and all those things… that’s the theme. And that’s it. You have asked about conferences and I have answered you.
I: Thank you very much.
Negro: You are welcome Isa.
I: And now I have another question (laughter).
Negro: I sensed that (laughter)… … with this thing we are always going around and around. It’s ideal, ideal for a conference and those sort of things, accompanied by a little glass of water. That would be great! …something abstruse, with difficult words and all that. It is going to be a mess. How do we do it? Do we set up speakers?
M: and… …understand nothing?
Negro: And how, not even the one saying it is going to understand (laughter)… figured out by the one listening… (laughter). Bingo! It is going to be a mess. Then? Nothing. (laughter).
M: And on top of everything they question you (laughter).
Negro: But it is a conference, a theme we are not finished with. That theme still has to be put in place… to finish with the story! Then let us do in the way that’s most… ….is it possible or not… (Laughter) …but few people, quietly and then a book for those that want it. Ciao. But let us not make a mess with conferences that have no popularity whatsoever, that don’t reach people. We will need to use a pretty difficult language, because no other language can be used for those things. Do you see? We have to take care of practical things regarding how we can loosen it up. It is important. But yes, from another point of view we are missing some explanations of those themes. That conversation will take… I don’t know, 35 minutes or two hours, or whatever, but we will be finished with that story… …of the whole scheme and the whole unfinished mess. Yes, we will do this little thing… …transcendental psychology we are speaking of oddities… for example we say: such and such a day, such and such a time… …that have been transcribed… O.K. In La Reja? It would be a great place for conference about those themes. It is very interesting. It is not going to serve The Message… It is going to tangle things up with what has to do with The Message, but those are themes… …there are many things that do not serve The Message. Think not? Look at Collected Works and you will see. It tangles everything up…. But it serves, from another point of view, to complete a schema. To complete a schema that does not remain in the psychological… but it goes beyond the pschological. And who cares about this? Well, someone cares but if not, it’s all the same (laughter), but it does not remain in the psychological. It is not right that we limit things to the psychological. What is going to happen at the conference? No, we do not limit ourselves to the psychological. And then what? We will do things according to our taste! And that’s that! No to the psychological… There are more things in heaven and Earth than dreamed of in your philosophy… Perhaps you are convinced that on Earth… Well, that is not poverty of the heart. That is vanity (laughter), pedantry, and perhaps other things. But, very well, let us finish with… (laughter). And after that we will be all right …?
P: And after there is no more psychology, just experience alone…
Negro: Neither psychology nor experience… And then we can leave also…
I: If we are speaking in plural, there is no problem (laughter)
Negro: Well, that is the psychology project (laughter). Is it all right like that? This is the announcement at this time.
N: What do you mean “we can leave”?
Negro: It’s a form … love, fear, leave, I love, I fear, I leave… you love, you fear, you leave… Have you seen these things? (laughter) They are grammatical exercises… Well, it is all right. The problem is how to do it on a small scale, quietly, without much mess… I don’t know if it can be done by invitation… it is hard to invite some and not others. How do we arrange this? Something has to be done.
Several comments: by lottery (laughter). Charging an entrance fee? (laughter).
Negro: That is already… those who have money can and those who don’t, can’t… that is inadmissible.
P. …many people outside?
Negro: But what happens is that people are not into this stuff … the language….
(Several comments: ...)
L: But well Negro if they were a lot, we know that they cannot fit, but…
Negro: But, what happens is that is not the adequate language. It is not going to be understood…
(Several comments: ...)
A: But nothing bad can happen.
Negro: Nothing bad can happen. Yes, it is true.
(Several comments: ....?)
D: For many of our people, to know that Negro is going to speak and they can’t go…
Negro: Yes, that is something…
(Several comments simultaneously).
Negro: That’s worse to go and not to understand!
Everyone: Of course!! Yes!
Negro: Well, then some explanation has to be given: Guys, things are complicated, the language is cumbersome, the language is specialized. What is certain…The author understands little… so whomever wants (to understand less?) Then OK. Then the one that gives the warning is not a traitor.
(Several comments simultaneously).
Negro: What is clear is that one has to give that conference, and explain those things. Then that is going to be put into writing and with that the task is finished. Of course we do not want to make trouble or complicate anyone… so that one who finds it boring, he’s screwed… or he doesn’t attend it. And there we are. It’s fine. It’s fine. We are discussing about how to do all that. That is we are discussing about several things that are going to be done. We are going to sell books, hats and what not at the kiosk. We have been speaking about all that today; about giving a conference and the place and seeing some problems that we might have with the conference. And then we said that anyone could go, but we warned: my friends we are going to give this conference… and the language is going to be pretty vaporous… Yes, yes! It’s good, I vote for that but with the appropriate explanation.
R: about a conference given many years ago… …we spoke about going dressed in a particular way, with a scarf… there was some complicity…
Negro: Because it was a dialog of idiots. (laughter).
P: We get the sensation of not understanding…
Negro: No, no… it is all right if I find those things amusing. But I say that we should not create trouble or complicate things. If we state things that way… We have to end with this there… and we can finish with the story and nothing could be better that to use La Reja to give a conference. I think it is going to be a conference of two hours… it can end up being a total bore… totally lethal, bring couches (laughter).
I: We are going to sell a lot of pillows (laughter)
Negro: Twenty bucks per pillow!! (laughter)
I: Negro, are we going to invite theologians…?
Negro: Those gossips?! No! It is not for them. We do not care about them and we do not have any reason to give them... …something printed if they can get them, and that’s that. It is not pleasing…
M: And the press?
Negro: The press?? The press!! Why would we want that repugnant thing for? Press, nooooo…
M: But they’re going to come just the same.
Negro: Yes, yes… let’s see the invitation? (laughter) You came without an invitation? Out!!...
N: Here everything is about accommodating.
Negro: Here everything is about accommodating. … we get in by accommodating… (laughter). …”And all those whose fathers are alive, take one step forward. You, Fernandez, you step back. (laughter). It was a way to let him know his father had died: “You, Fernandez, stay back. Here there are only those who are recommended. So, you…” It’s funny… Yes, that way we are OK. And we do it according to our taste and that’s that… no, no, no… not the gossips, not the theologians, the scum bags, the reporters, nothing. We are going to do these things, we are going to keep in mind what to say and that’s that, but with that there is an end to the story. But since we cannot… …we have to invite our people, but we give them a little warning. And all those that want to… and those that don’t want to don’t go… …but some that want to, we don’t want and (laughter)… those are the revolting ones.
M: And could it be with a screen?
Negro: It could be... could be. Certainly. That’s what we were talking about this afternoon. Certainly, there we could do something interesting.
P: (…?)
Negro: …for example. Yes, with the screen and all that.
P: (…?)
Negro: Of course, going around all that. That’s also inspiring.
P: (...?) (laughter)
Negro: But we have to fix some things there. Roberto… Where is Roberto? We have to fix the echo and various things… because one’s voice is heard well in the center. It’s fantastic, it arrives from all around but those people further away can’t hear anything of what’s being said. We have to break the wave with a few little speakers. 6 or 8 little speakers placed all around as if they were lights, not too visible, at an angle, at a slight angle. Then if we turn them on we break the wave and it goes… because the one giving the ceremony has a microphone and the sound is produced by all these speakers. Then everything goes well and everyone hears… …a strange effect is produced and if you do not let everything go, and if you do, you only hear yourself and the rest hear nothing (laughter). It’s very funny.
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